I've just seen.....

[Guest Jake Wifebeater]

Ha, I remember Beckham and the Crass T shirt, that was extremely laughable. Somehow I can't see Becks chucking on Feeding Of The Five Thousand for an evening's entertainment.

Did they not sell Motorhead T shirts in Top Shop for a while in little girly sizes?

Aye, that's all I was trying to say, but some smartarse just had to try and turn it into another turgid "What is punk?" debate, like we need another of those. I was laughing thinking of Beckham reading the "Christ:The Album" booklet. Don't think so.

I was recently in TK Maxx (dragged in by my shopaholic best friend) and they had their own line of Motorhead and Clash shirts, maybe that's what you're thinking of. Crazy.

[Guest Jake Wifebeater]

yea cause gay people can't like hardcore bands right?

Hoho, of course not, Pansy Division, Limp Wrist, MDC, Knifed, Los Crudos, Diesel Queens......

[Paulscoconutass]

Aye, that's all I was trying to say, but some smartarse just had to try and turn it into another turgid "What is punk?" debate, like we need another of those. I was laughing thinking of Beckham reading the "Christ:The Album" booklet. Don't think so.

Didn't say a word about anybody's definition of punk. All I asked was why you'd have a built-in prejudice that someone like David Beckham could never listen to an anarcho punk band. Nobody went tits up when Angelina Jolie was spotted wearing one.

It's understandable why the aforementioned Clash / Motorhead / Pistols tee shirts are popular; because those bands are iconic and have always carried a trendy stigma, but Crass? How much do you think your average person would know about them?

[Teabags]

but Crass? How much do you think your average person would know about them?

fuck all. which is probabaly what makes it fashionable to be honest. I know fuck all about fashion, but Crass shirts are not something you will ever find in shops, and pretty much not going to be available in the type of places David Beckham shops for his clothes (unless Beckham was recently at a Hackney squat gig, or down Camdem Market)

Basically, the symbol and statements on it some fashion twat probably thought was chic, and since Crass were very anti-copyright and the likes, said fashion fuck gets away with using it in said "chic" fashion. I doubt Beckham even knew he was wearing a band t-shirt.

[Alkaline]

fuck all. which is probabaly what makes it fashionable to be honest. I know fuck all about fashion, but Crass shirts are not something you will ever find in shops, and pretty much not going to be available in the type of places David Beckham shops for his clothes (unless Beckham was recently at a Hackney squat gig, or down Camdem Market)

Basically, the symbol and statements on it some fashion twat probably thought was chic, and since Crass were very anti-copyright and the likes, said fashion fuck gets away with using it in said "chic" fashion. I doubt Beckham even knew he was wearing a band t-shirt.

Does it matter? No. Good, sorted.

[Teabags]

Does it matter? No. Good, sorted.

INcidentally, yes....

CRASS LYRICS

"Punk Is Dead"

Yes that's right, punk is dead,

It's just another cheap product for the consumers head.

Bubblegum rock on plastic transistors,

Schoolboy sedition backed by big time promoters.

CBS promote the Clash,

But it ain't for revolution, it's just for cash.

Punk became a fashion just like hippy used to be

And it ain't got a thing to do with you or me.

Movements are systems and systems kill.

Movements are expressions of the public will.

Punk became a movement cos we all felt lost,

But the leaders sold out and now we all pay the cost.

Punk narcissism was social napalm,

Steve Jones started doing real harm.

Preaching revolution, anarchy and change

As he sucked from the system that had given him his name.

Well I'm tired of staring through shit stained glass,

Tired of staring up a superstars arse,

I've got an arse and crap and a name,

I'm just waiting for my fifteen minutes fame.

Steve Jones you're napalm,

If you're so pretty (vacant) why do you swarm?

Patti Smith you're napalm,

You write with your hand but it's Rimbaud's arm.

And me, yes I, do I want to burn?

Is there something I can learn?

Do I need a business man to promote my angle?

Can I resist the carrots that fame and fortune dangle?

I see the velvet zippies in their bondage gear,

The social elite with safety-pins in their ear,

I watch and understand that it don't mean a thing,

The scorpions might attack, but the systems stole the sting.

PUNK IS DEAD. PUNK IS DEAD. PUNK IS DEAD.

PUNK IS DEAD. PUNK IS DEAD. PUNK IS DEAD.

PUNK IS DEAD. PUNK IS DEAD. PUNK IS DEAD.

[Alkaline]

INcidentally, yes....

It doesn't matter at all. The guy can fucking wear what he likes. Saying that only you and your mates (and people who like the band) can wear their t-shirts is a bit fascist. Maybe he liked the way it looked (as is usually the way people dress you know), maybe his stylist did. Who cares.

I'm sure Crass certainly wouldn't've created t-shirts to promote their band and not wanted people to wear them.

[Teabags]

It doesn't matter at all. The guy can fucking wear what he likes. Saying that only you and your mates (and people who like the band) can wear their t-shirts is a bit fascist. Maybe he liked the way it looked (as is usually the way people dress you know), maybe his stylist did. Who cares.

I'm sure Crass certainly wouldn't've created t-shirts to promote their band and not wanted people to wear them.

This is not about liking the band or the shirt. Its about all Crass stood for.

If you had written something that meant alot to you then found out 20 years later you were being used in the exact way you hated about something, would you be happy about it?

Would it matter if he had been wearing a Skrewdriver shirt(Skrewdriver being a pioneering BNP/NF/White Power band), or is it still just about the way it looks?

Hell, if its Ok, the NF might as well start using Martin Luther King as the face of their party.

[Alkaline]

This is not about liking the band or the shirt. Its about all Crass stood for.

If you had written something that meant alot to you then found out 20 years later you were being used in the exact way you hated about something, would you be happy about it?

Would it matter if he had been wearing a Skrewdriver shirt(Skrewdriver being a pioneering BNP/NF/White Power band), or is it still just about the way it looks?

Hell, if its Ok, the NF might as well start using Martin Luther King as the face of their party.

Good points well made. But can you honestly say that its 100% unlikely that David Beckham likes Crass? I just think you're being ridiculously judgemental. Something which, i'm guessing due to your personal beliefs etc you shouldn't be.

[french_disko]

I went to college in Elgin with the brother of Crass's bass player (don't ask me which bass player).

Weirdly, the brother was a 40 something, conservative little Englander.

He did let me borrow some of his Crass albums though.

Anyway, the point - if there is one - is that not all Crass fans are smelly crusties.

(lights touchpaper... stands well back).

[Teabags]

Good points well made. But can you honestly say that its 100% unlikely that David Beckham likes Crass? I just think you're being ridiculously judgemental. Something which, i'm guessing due to your personal beliefs etc you shouldn't be.

I know, tis assumption, of course, but do you really think Beckham would wear a shirt that he found down in Candem Market or something? For some reason, I highly doubt the pinnacle of fashion lies in home-screen-printed fruit of the loom t-shirts. I highly doubt it.

About Jolie wearing one, I think she seems a little more educated than the Beckhams, and probabaly did agree with some fo the things they said, though fuck knows where she got it.

Crass becoming fashionable is just an oxymoron. And buy Beckham wearing one, it almost makes them just that.

[Teabags]

Anyway, the point - if there is one - is that not all Crass fans are smelly crusties.

I know that. But if you're going to listen to Crass and you're a fashion icon and you're gonna display Crass logos to the world while being a fashion icon, surely you should kind of look into what they're about. Being fashionable isn't a license to be ignorant.

Fuck, my older brother keeps asking me for my Crass t-shirt, and he's in the fucking navy and is a bit of a nationalist, and I just say, wise up and he calls me a smelly hippie. Don't really give a fuck.

[french_disko]

I know that. But if you're going to listen to Crass and you're a fashion icon and you're gonna display Crass logos to the world while being a fashion icon, surely you should kind of look into what they're about. Being fashionable isn't a license to be ignorant.

Fuck, my older brother keeps asking me for my Crass t-shirt, and he's in the fucking navy and is a bit of a nationalist, and I just say, wise up and he calls me a smelly hippie. Don't really give a fuck.

I agree with you basically - I don't think for a second that Beckham has a clue who Crass, Motorhead or whatever band T he's wearing this week are.

In fact, I'm very much of the opinion that he wouldn't know the Rolling Stones are.

I wonder what the licensing issues are for a company like Amplified (who produce these Stones / Head / Zep / Clash Ts that you saw in TK Maxx) to get permission to use the names and logos?

Surely the bands must be in agreement somewhere along the line?

[Alkaline]

I wonder what the licensing issues are for a company like Amplified (who produce these Stones / Head / Zep / Clash Ts that you saw in TK Maxx) to get permission to use the names and logos?

Surely the bands must be in agreement somewhere along the line?

It depends if they optioned their merchandising rights in their record contracts.

And i do agree it id highly unlikely that Beckham does know who Crass are, but he isn't completely ignorant and i bet he could pick lemmy from motorhead and mick jagger from the stones from a police line-up.

[Teabags]

I agree with you basically - I don't think for a second that Beckham has a clue who Crass, Motorhead or whatever band T he's wearing this week are.

In fact, I'm very much of the opinion that he wouldn't know the Rolling Stones are.

I wonder what the licensing issues are for a company like Amplified (who produce these Stones / Head / Zep / Clash Ts that you saw in TK Maxx) to get permission to use the names and logos?

Surely the bands must be in agreement somewhere along the line?

I dont know about Motorhead and The Clash etc but Crass certianly have no say, cos they were anti-copyright. Hence why some fuck whit record label ended up putting their music on CD, removing the part of the cover art that said "PAY NO MORE THAN £3" like it said on all their LPs and selling it for £12.

[David Insurrection]

Regarding this shirt, should we as a community permit the use of symbols - those representative of a community in struggle, as though they were mere products, as though our ideas, our political vision, was but a thing that could be bought and sold in the market place? Of course not. This scene, its politics, are not commodities. We're talkn' 'bout somethin' real, of some considerable meaning, not just some throwaway item or idea.

The shirt was produced not by Crass, but is a fashion garment, produced without Crass' permission. The art has been used purely for financial gain. Those responsible couldn't give a damn 'bout its meaning.

Regarding Beckham, Crass man Penny Rimbaud did actually contact him regarding his wearing this shirt. Kylie and Will Young were photographed wearing the same shirt.

[Guest bluesxman]

I dont know about Motorhead and The Clash etc but Crass certianly have no say, cos they were anti-copyright. Hence why some fuck whit record label ended up putting their music on CD, removing the part of the cover art that said "PAY NO MORE THAN £3" like it said on all their LPs and selling it for £12.

All the old Crass singles I had in my teens and now don't have, can't remember where they went, sell for about a fiver at record fairs. Albums about a tenner, so much for 'Pay no more than 99p/£1.99'. Everything becomes a commodity it seems. I collected up the old stuff on CD, got most of them for less than a fiver importing via Amazon.

I seem to remember reading that Beckham listens to R'n'B, as in the black rap type stuff. I really cannot believe he would like Crass. Don't have proof but just can't. I've never seen Angelina in a Crass T shirt but could believe that she would know who they were and have heard their music, probably even like it.

Were Crass not all slightly posh middle class types, thought I'd also read that somewhere?

[Teabags]

All the old Crass singles I had in my teens and now don't have, can't remember where they went, sell for about a fiver at record fairs. Albums about a tenner, so much for 'Pay no more than 99p/£1.99'. Everything becomes a commodity it seems. I collected up the old stuff on CD, got most of them for less than a fiver importing via Amazon.

I seem to remember reading that Beckham listens to R'n'B, as in the black rap type stuff. I really cannot believe he would like Crass. Don't have proof but just can't. I've never seen Angelina in a Crass T shirt but could believe that she would know who they were and have heard their music, probably even like it.

Were Crass not all slightly posh middle class types, thought I'd also read that somewhere?

Crass started off because 2 of them (think it was Penny Rimbaud and Steve Ignorant) were living in the same squat at the time.

Oh yeah, I also bought an Electro Hippies LP form The Tunnels a while back for £8, only to find the "Pay No More than £4" on the back when I got home

[Guest bluesxman]

Crass started off because 2 of them (think it was Penny Rimbaud and Steve Ignorant) were living in the same squat at the time.

Oh yeah, I also bought an Electro Hippies LP form The Tunnels a while back for 8, only to find the "Pay No More than 4" on the back when I got home

Aye, it just seems wrong to see old punk albums being sold at inflated prices with the 'Pay No More Than' being clearly stated on the cover.

I also disagree with the amount of money being charged for some 2nd hand CD's in One Up these days, shocking.

[Guest bluesxman]

I wasn't trying to enter into any debate about the ethics of Crass records being sold at inflated prices, I was just generally chit chatting. I used to have an interest in the band's music in my younger days, not the politics or lifestyle that they pursued, but other than occasionally listening to their stuff I'm not an avid follower of them historically or any other punk bands. I still admire much of their ability to wind up the establishment and especially the artwork on their records, the influence has been obvious as teh years have went by.

I do have a long standing amusement surrounding affluent types playing at being destitute but always having the readies to fall back on, but am not suggesting Crass were of this ilk. Basically I don't care, whereas you probably do due to your obvious interest in the whole subculture.

EDIT - This probably doesn't make sense cos the other guy deleted his post, ah well.

[David Insurrection]

I wasn't trying to enter into any debate about the ethics of Crass records being sold at inflated prices, I was just generally chit chatting. I used to have an interest in the band's music in my younger days, not the politics or lifestyle that they pursued, but other than occasionally listening to their stuff I'm not an avid follower of them historically or any other punk bands. I still admire much of their ability to wind up the establishment and especially the artwork on their records, the influence has been obvious as teh years have went by.

I do have a long standing amusement surrounding affluent types playing at being destitute but always having the readies to fall back on, but am not suggesting Crass were of this ilk. Basically I don't care, whereas you probably do due to your obvious interest in the whole subculture.

EDIT - This probably doesn't make sense cos the other guy deleted his post, ah well.

Firstly apologies. Had deleted my post not entirely happy with what I'd written. Also don't really want to get involved in any lengthy arguements. But, reading your post, don't think there is much to disagree upon.

[Spoonie]

i love seeing people getting bent out of shape about this kind of thing. beckham may be a huge crass fan and love their sound and what they stand for. like most people here, i see that as pretty unlikely since he always talks about RnB/Hiphop as his favourite genres but either way, why does it matter. he's free to wear whatever he likes, just as anyone is. perhaps a few people will do their research after seeing pictures of him wearing it and get into the crass sound/music/message. maybe not, but maybe crass fans don't want that anyway.

either way, crass were a lot of nonsense. they had a real problem with people changing what they stood for and yet they did exactly that themselves. not to mention the fact that they sounded like shit!

/x

[Guest Jake Wifebeater]

Nobody went tits up when Angelina Jolie was spotted wearing one.

I didn't know about that, so allow me to go tits up. She can fuck off as well.

[Guest Jake Wifebeater]

It doesn't matter at all. The guy can fucking wear what he likes. Saying that only you and your mates (and people who like the band) can wear their t-shirts is a bit fascist. Maybe he liked the way it looked (as is usually the way people dress you know), maybe his stylist did. Who cares.

I'm sure Crass certainly wouldn't've created t-shirts to promote their band and not wanted people to wear them.

What's the fucking point of wearing a band's shirt if you don't like, or have never heard, the band? Ridiculous.

And another thing, Crass never made their own shirts, but they said they didn't mind if other people did.

[Guest Jake Wifebeater]

Regarding Beckham, Crass man Penny Rimbaud did actually contact him regarding his wearing this shirt. Kylie and Will Young were photographed wearing the same shirt.

I remember seeing Beckham wearing an Exodus "Bonded By Blood" shirt. I seriously considered sending my vinyl of it to Old Trafford with a sarcastic letter, decided to keep the record in the end.

And as for Kylie and Will Young in Crass shirts? If I'd been in Crass I would have been blind with rage.