Bear Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 When we killed millions of Iraqi's due to years of harsh sanctions we were basically making those innocent people pay for the policies of Saddam Hussein. I didn't think it was fair to make those innocents pay for their governments policies so I therefore don't agree with boycotting a band (who's members views I know nothing about) just because of where they happened to be born either. That seems unfair too. They're no more responsible for their government than I am for mine.Just my views although no doubt Stripey will have a problem with something I've just written there and rant about how I have no fucken clue and don't know a damn thing and simply have absolutely know idea of what I'm talking about, and that further posts of mine are not worth reading because I clearly have no clue about anything etc, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stripey Posted May 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 I understand boycotting Israeli produce, but a band is the creative work of an individual, and I assume you have no idea of their personal political stand-point. Would you feel comfortable having your music boycotted in Iraq and a thread about your music being used as a forum to display news links to atrocities at the hands of the British?Sorry but a touring band coming here to make money is no different than an avacado being sent here to make money. I have nothing against the avacados themselves. Being Israeli though, the members of this band *will* have served in the IDF and therefore complicit in the crimes of their government. Unless of course they are conscientious objectors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 Being Israeli though, the members of this band *will* have served in the IDF and therefore complicit in the crimes of their government. Unless of course they are conscientious objectors?Well you don't know either way. So who are you to assume?And as I mentioned in my previous post - I assume you will be boycotting US and UK musicians as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 Being Israeli though, the members of this band *will* have served in the IDF and therefore complicit in the crimes of their government. Unless of course they are conscientious objectors?Do you really think it's that black and white though? Are all Israeli's who serve in the IDF (as they are pretty much required to) some sort of criminals in your eyes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stripey Posted May 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 Well you don't know either way. So who are you to assume?Military service is mandatory in Israel, there is an interesting article here relating to the kind of thing conscripts commonly experience Our reign of terror, by the Israeli army - Middle East, World - The Independent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KimyReizeger Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 They're no more responsible for their government than I am for mine...But democratic governments in capitalist states serve the demands of the people within (thus technically making the people responsible - whether or not this is the reality, I've personally no idea). Where exactly does blame lie in any conflict? On what individual's head? Or is it on all of us, our collective ways; do I not acquiesce every time I fill up my car? Like the cannabis thread, you are assuming such things as 'individuals' within nations, unaccountable to and not affecting anyone else - Gollum-type characters living in the hills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 Military service is mandatory in Israel...I know that. But you don't know that they support/agree with what the IDF do or the actions of their government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stripey Posted May 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 I know that. But you don't know that they support/agree with what the IDF do or the actions of their government.You don't know that they don't either, have you got any evidence of their political beliefs? Is it really that unreasonable to raise this question? Because it is a fact that these guys have served in the IDF and have probably manned checkpoints, pointed guns at people and god knows what else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 You don't know that they don't either, have you got any evidence of their political beliefs? Is it really that unreasonable to raise this question?Nope, I don't. But I'm not the one encouraging people to boycott them on the basis of nothing more than an assumption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 But democratic governments in capitalist states serve the demands of the people within (thus technically making the people responsible - whether or not this is the reality, I've personally no idea). Where exactly does blame lie in any conflict? On what individual's head?These things are way complicated and things usually aren't black and white because life isn't but as a pretty general rule the people who order stuff and actually carry it out are responsible. Would every single German have been responsible for Hitler? Is every old German alive today really responsible for that? I think not. What do you think KimyReizeger?Actually I think giving the order is probably worse than carrying it out, I think most people would do something bad if someone in a position of authority told them to and said they'd be in trouble if they didn't . Giving the order is morally worse I think, because it's something they actually want to happen, rather than something they're to weak or scared not to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stripey Posted May 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 Actually I think giving the order is probably worse than carrying it out, I think most people would do something bad if someone in a position of authority told them too I don't know any decent person who would commit a crime because someone else told them to, unless their defense is being a fucking sub-mental xenophobic bootlicker. Are you really suggesting that the people who physically shot jews in the head in concentration camps are blameless? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KimyReizeger Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 These things are way complicated and things usually aren't black and white because life isn't but as a pretty general rule the people who order stuff and actually carry it out are responsible. Would every single German have been responsible for Hitler? Is every old German alive today really responsible for that? I think not. What do you think KimyReizeger?o.I just have trouble blaming individuals in government, particularly as the decisions they make are essentially made to benefit us / based on our demands. It's so easy to take the piss out of Bush and Blair, for example, but they are merely faces to vent rage onto; faces, I should add, for a British and American consumer capitalist tradition that surged out of a relentless 19th century industrial revolution and still exists today. This aggressive expansionism has spanned generations - it's in our blood - so where does the blame for desiring and taking resources lie? It's a fairly ingrained concept in European history (see Africa).You are right to call it complicated though; I fail to see where the individuals are in a nation such as Britain. Maybe we should blame culture, tradition and our collective selves (for not having the strength to change things)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear Posted May 2, 2008 Report Share Posted May 2, 2008 I don't know any decent person who would commit a crime because someone else told them to, unless their defense is being a fucking sub-mental xenophobic bootlicker.Really? The evidence suggests that the majority of people will do bad things if someone in authority tells them to. There is was a very famous experiment known as 'The Milgram Experiment' about it, although loads more research has been done since then. If most people really would point blank refuse to obey evil orders there would be far less atrocities in the world.Are you really suggesting that the people who physically shot jews in the head in concentration camps are blameless?No, I'm suggesting that there are degrees of evil and there is a huge difference between doing things that you don't want to do, but are scared not to do, and ordering things because you want to see them happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emergency72 Posted May 2, 2008 Report Share Posted May 2, 2008 But democratic governments in capitalist states serve the demands of the people withinAnd the tooth fairy really brings you money if you leave money under your pillow.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stripey Posted May 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2008 Investigators clear Israeli air force in deaths of Gaza family - CNN.com"The investigators agreed with the IDF's contention that the family was killed by explosives and weapons that four militants were carrying near the family's home when they were hit by an Israeli aerial assault. The home was extensively damaged, investigators said."what a fucking horrible lie. "It wasn't our tank shells and airstrike that blew up their house, it was the bombs the militants were carrying when we bombed them" How on earth can this carry on without international humanitarian intervention? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KimyReizeger Posted May 3, 2008 Report Share Posted May 3, 2008 And the tooth fairy really brings you money if you leave money under your pillow....What are you saying? That the British government is a stand alone body acting away from the interests of British people? What are you? A 1980's Welsh miner?Looks like you quoted me very selectively out of context and it's probably not worth bothering about about, but I'm intrigued.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear Posted May 3, 2008 Report Share Posted May 3, 2008 How on earth can this carry on without international humanitarian intervention?Because, unfortunately, international relations are based on power and not law (despite whatever else they say).I agree with you that it's an absolute fucken disgrace. But I ain't gonna blame (or boycott) ordinary Israeli's for it I'm afraid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stripey Posted May 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2008 Because, unfortunately, international relations are based on power and not law (despite whatever else they say).I agree with you that it's an absolute fucken disgrace. But I ain't gonna blame (or boycott) ordinary Israeli's for it I'm afraid.I guess you haven't met many "ordinary israelis". The *vast majority* of israeli's I've met have been cool to talk to, but once you touch on politics *most* of them still completeley support the stance of their government and have some pretty entrenched racist / bigoted points of view. Like I said, military service is compulsory in Israel and most israelis in their early 20's will have served in areas where they are directly involved in the ongoing oppression and brutalisation of the palestinian people. In this respect, the "ordinary israelis" that you speak of are not just politically lazy, disenfranchised passives who have no control over the actions of their government, but they are actually directly involved in the criminal brutalisation of the palestinian people that occurs every day in the west bank and gaza. So it is entirely reasonable to blame AND boycott these "ordinary israelis" because they literally are the people who are responsible.War and the Morality of Americans by Joseph Potter read this article, it's equally appropriate for Israel and the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stripey Posted May 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2008 BBC NEWS | Middle East | Olmert faces new corruption probe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Gold Posted May 8, 2008 Report Share Posted May 8, 2008 People shouldn't care, because the band are really good and hopefully have never killed anyone who didn't deserve it.Innocent until proven guilty! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stripey Posted May 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2008 People shouldn't care, because the band are really good and hopefully have never killed anyone who didn't deserve it.Innocent until proven guilty!well they are certainly guilty of sounding about 30 years out of date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaki Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 I'd shag an Israeli bird if she was hot and I'd go and see an Israeli band if they were good. No fucking way I'd touch one of their fucking avocados though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesbroonbreed Posted May 12, 2008 Report Share Posted May 12, 2008 I'd shag a kettle if it was hot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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