A conversation about race

[Guest Bob]

I would hope that the people who feel strongly enough to give their opinion on this subject would at least feel strongly enough to watch the film.

I started this thread to discuss and share this film, not to discuss the structure of PC language or what words are offensive to whom.

[Pierre Von Mondragon]

I don't think it's a case of political correctness gone mad. It's more that political correctness is entirely mad.

Care to add climate change denial to the list.*

And I'll hazard the guess, feel free to correct me, that you come from a headspace that places individualism as preferable to, and opposite from communal responsibility, rather than one that believes in an equable balance of individual rights and community responsibilities, to ensure relative social harmony. That leads to understanding your wish to not have your use of language regulated by any external societal norms, Correct or not.

Anecdotal Corner; I remember 70's telly, they weren't allowed to say fuck, but they could call someone a "nig-nog", I well prefer the way things are now, we have become better for it.

*Right Wingers Say the Funniest Things

Need I point out that I am trying to be flippant here... probably.

[Scootray]

Parenthesis is your friend.

[Guest Bob]

And I'll hazard the guess, feel free to correct me, that you come from a headspace that places individualism as preferable to, and opposite from communal responsibility, rather than one that believes in an equable balance of individual rights and community responsibilities, to ensure relative social harmony. That leads to understanding your wish to not have your use of language regulated by any external societal norms, Correct or not.

I think you're being overly aggressive and putting words in his mouth.

You're introducing new subjects then telling him his position on them so you can then argue with said position before he's even made his position clear.

You're an intelligent guy, but this isn't the way to deal with people. It is the blunt hammer with which to destroy intelligent debate, not foster it.

I can stand brute force, but brute reason is quite unbearable. There is something unfair about its use. It is hitting below the intellect. - Oscar Wilde

[Le Stu]

I'd prefer it if you didn't use the term 'right-winger' as it hurts my feelings.

Political correctness constrains political expression and debate and I despise it for these reasons and these reasons alone. I'm sorry you feel this is an assault on the values you were raised with.

Or...

Why don't you just call me a holocaust denier you pinko fuck?

[Guest Bob]

Two people are talking about Green Day and The Clash. They are discussing The Clash as an influencing force on Green Day and to what degree, if any, that influence can be felt in their collected works.

Since both participants are quite knowledgeable in this topic it is a very in-depth and stimulating conversation they are enjoying.

A third person who has never listened to either band and knows next to nothing about the subject overhears and chips in, "But what is punk?"

At this stage I feel I must now insist to everyone:

WATCH THE FILM BEFORE YOU POST

Pierre, stop changing the subject to suit yourself and stop implicating people as closet racists.

[Pierre Von Mondragon]

you pinko fuck?

Aw, stop being so nice to me, I'm not used to flattery. And if me saying Right Winger is offensive, hey, thats a good sign, and I take it back.

I thought I was being reasonable, I haven't called anyone anything stronger than RW, didn't compare anyone to Hitler, even my anecdote was meant to illustrate more how shocking the casual racism of the not so distant past was, not a directed jibe...

...at least thats what Stalin told me to say.

PS I'm still nae daeing ma video Hamework, I hinna got an 'oour min.

PPS, What about the influence of The Ruts?

[Le Stu]

Okay, lets get on topic. I thought that some of the questions he was using for counterpoint were maybe not as equivalent as they could have been. For example:

"Do you think black people are better at basketball?"

(may not be verbatim from the film)

could have been counterpointed with

"Do you think white people are better at golf?"

Where he actually counterpointed the first question with something like

"Do you think white students do better on standardised tests?"

Which seems a lot more complex. Any other examples of this?

[Guest Bob]

Okay, lets get on topic. I thought that maybe some of the questions he was using for counterpoint were maybe not as equivalent as they could have been. For example.

"Do you think black people are better at basketball?"

"Do you think white students do better on standardised tests?"

The second question was more along the lines of:

"Why do you think white students do better than black students on standardised tests?"

So I agree. Those two are not equivalent questions at all, but whereas the interview subjects easily praised the black people for their skills at basketball none said, "Maybe white students study really hard".

I would have answered the second question the way I think every interview subject did by saying, "The questions are probably white-oriented".

That was MY answer and one I would have come to almost automatically.

The kicker came when he said, "Why is it that Asians score better than white people on standardised tests?"

Those two questions are directly equivalent.

The answers were "Oh, Asians study harder", or "Asians have a history of intelligence" etc. They all praised the Asians. They all praised the black people. None of them that I can remember said anything positive about white people.

When Craig then asked, "Why would the questions designed BY white people FOR white people most favour Asians?", none of them could give a reasonable answer.

That's because they had already applied a double standard and there was no way out unless they admitted that.

That was the genius of the film.

[Le Stu]

The other revelation, that white students do better because they CHEAT really never crossed my mind. That was amazing. I think I would have mumbled something about socio-economic disadvantages hindering black students. Maybe that's a better answer, I dunno... I'm sure he would have caught me out with that somehow.